We're finally getting to see the temple! And see Jacob?!?!?!
I know everything Dan said about changing the past could be possible but I just don't think it's going to happen. There's too much course correction, my guess is that correction comes in the form of Locke. Even if it didn't I don't think it's possible; Daniel has made it clear that you can't change other people's past and with this loophole what happens to the world? Do just those people jump back in time and get reset somehow? My intro physics did not prepare me for all this.
Also, they need to stop trying to make Juliet seem better. They've spent so long trying to make her attractive and now they're making Kate annoying. She was just obnoxious last week.
SAYID IS BACK! I sadly completely forgot about him. He's going to do big things in the finale. They've been saving him up. Same with Richard, I feel like he's going to be a HUGE part of this episode because he is with both groups. I really don't know what I think will happen.
If Jin and Sun don't get back together I'll cry.
PLEASE RESPOND I'M HOME AND NOBODY ELSE IS AND ALL I HAVE TO DO TO WASTE MY TIME UNTIL THE FINALE IS WAIT FOR PEOPLE TO RESPOND
Lostcampia is not dead. And it's not because I love it ([cough]Trinity[/cough]). It's because dead is dead--you can't come back from the dead--and yet here it is, alive and kicking!
ReplyDeleteI'm glad you posted. I've been super-busy, or else I would've, but I've watched the last two episodes a couple days late...
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Could we rename this post "The Variable and Follow the Leader"? And then we can have a new one on Wednesday.
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Ever since this destiny / course-correction thing began, I've been saying that the producers are going to have to make a choice about what they want to be saying. What's the moral of the story? "You can't escape destiny"? Or "You are in control of your own destiny"?
The writers and characters are now dealing with that in a very serious way. And they're dealing with what purpose is, and what the "right" state of the world is.
Locke's plan to kill Jacob seems to represent a rejection of the supernatural--of destiny--of the man behind the curtain. It reminds me of (spoiler alert!!!) Lord Asriel killing God in the Golden Compass trilogy. Highly symbolic.
And yet, he says the island is guiding him. To what extent? Maybe he, like Daniel, is actually branching out on his own.
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In the sci-fi book "Pastwatch: The Redemption of Christopher Columbus," people in the future go back in time to save the world by stopping Columbus from slaughtering the Native Americans. In doing so, they instantly destroy the original timeline. Not only is it no longer real, but it was NEVER real. Weird. A little sad. They bring a time capsule with them, though.
This is all pseudo-science, so it's up to the writers what happens. Maybe parallel universes can exist simultaneously. Maybe it's possible to move between them. Maybe that's what it means to make a choice.
Lostcampia is not dead...I am very close from exhaustion, and that's the only reason I haven't been posting!
ReplyDeleteThis finale is going to be amazing. Let's get Lostcampia rocking in response to it.
Good to see people still posting. I guess we've all been busy recently.
ReplyDeleteI'm really curious to learn more about Richard, and I think Liz is right that he'll get some good airtime tonight.
Locke's plan is strange. For a while now, he's had faith in the island, so his determination to kill Jacob in front the others is tough to understand. JacobMy best guess is that he sees Jacob as an unfit spokesperson for the island. Maybe Locke thinks that he should be the new Jacob, and maybe he thinks that if he can discredit and/or kill Jacob in front of the other, he'll have immediate credibility and support.
Still waiting to see something significant about either the statue or the Black Rock. Feels like we're due for info on at least one of them.
One quick theory. Locke is Jacob. Longshot.
I feel like next season we may spend some time in Ann Arbor (Dharma HQ, right?). Could be cool.
ReplyDeleteIf the nuke-the-Swan, change-the-past plan works, we could also end up setting up a very bizarre Season 6 in which everything starts over as if the plane had never crashed.
I again can't help but think back to Season 1 and how different it was. BUT I also can't help but notice how much the narrative style (i.e. flashbacks) both foreshadowed and prepared the audience for this season's time traveling craziness.
I really do think they pretty much knew where this was going from the beginning. Not in any detail, not necessarily RIGHT at the beginning... but, contrary to some folks' opinions, I think it's pretty clearly premeditated.
Yes, Locke's plan is very interesting. We'll just have to wait and see. And I still like the idea that Locke IS Jacob.
Or what if he's... I dunno...
Hurley.
:D
1. JACOB.
ReplyDelete2. VINCENT.
3. ROSE AND BERNARD.
4. NUK--oh wait never mind...
5. The Incident.
6. LOOPHOLY LOCKE???
7. NNNUUUKKKEEE!!!
And topping it all off was the inverted title card. That's what really got me. We're back to square one, it seems. Only this time, it'll be... different.
In. Cred. I. Ble.
:D :D :D
Last nights episode was so good. Two John Lockes??? Will the nuke work?
ReplyDeleteI can't wait till next season
Oh man, ok, too much to mention. Here are my top 10 thoughts for now:
ReplyDelete1. The opening scene: remember the beginning of The Tempest? opening scene with Prospero talking to Ariel while looking at the ship out on the water. Ummm, exact.
1.a. The opening scene dialogue is outstanding. I'm reading Huxley's "Island," and it relates a lot. (the opening scene of "Island," by the way, describes the main character just like Jack in the opening scene of the pilot.
2. Frank is important?! Ilana (who is now a hugely important character) said that they should keep Frank because he might be a candidate--but for what? Frank?
3. The Jacob stuff was amazing. Loved it. I loved not only seeing him in different scenes from the past, but also in the latest scenes (Hurley), showing that he lives for a long time and doesn't age. Also, he's a very cool character. I don't think he's dead. Could he be? Hmmmmm!!! The kid Kate and Sawyer were perfectly cast. That was sweet.
4. I thought for sure there would be a Jacob scene with Aaron because he is one of the 6. Confused as to why there wasn't.
5. I'm disappointed about Ben...all along, I thought he was just lying that he had never seen Jacob, yet now it seems that he really never has (right?!). BUT, in that scene in the cabin when he got thrown into the wall, how could he have acted that??? I still want Ben to be powerful--could I be wrong that he really isn't or is there more in store for him next season (the last season...very sad).
6. I don't really understand the nuclear bomb going off and what that means--is the island destroyed? How can it be if all the other characters are in 2007 on the island? I need this explained to me!
7. The gunfight at the Swan Saloon was cheesy.
8. I didn't realize this before the pre-finale show, but Richard is the ONLY character who is in BOTH 1977 and 2007. Hmmmm.
9. Clearly the new Locke is a manifestation of that character from the beginning. Does that mean he is NOT Locke? Is this like the Smoke Monster manifesting in certain ways?
10. I nearly cried in the Juliet death scene (seriously). But, you all knew that. I thought the Jack-Kate melodrama was cheesy, but I actually believed in the tenderness of the Sawyer-Juliet relationship.
A couple more points:
ReplyDelete11. Awesome Rose and Bernard lines. A great way to end their characters, I think "It's always something with you guys..." and it actually links back to what the guy said to Jacob in the opening scene.
12. Miles line about how maybe Farraday's plan is not going to work was great.
Another point:
ReplyDelete13. A moment of terrible writing in the finale: when Sawyer and Jack go off for a 5-minute talk alone in the woods while Sayid was bleeding his guts out. That was really, really, really dumb and a poor move on the writers' part.
I agree with 13. Tsk tsk, Did we ever get faux Locke's real name? (John Locke is also a music professor at my school I recently discovered)
ReplyDeleteSawyer looked so truly upset in the Juliet fall scene. Did Jacob bring Locke back to life in his fall from the window because he was still until Jacob touched his shoulder and would make it less a miracle and more agents of higher forces doing what they need to. I really want the stupid Dharma guy dead he is too angry all the time.
A couple more:
ReplyDelete14. Because I so badly want Ben to still be the evil lord of the island--I think that Jacob is not dead, and that he and Ben conspired to create this mock killing. A stretch, I know, but I really, really feel like Ben has become too wimpy too easily.
15. Now that my Juliet crush is dead, I do have to say I have a total male crush on Jacob. He's the man.
Hello all, glad we're back. Just a few quick comments for now, as I have a ridiculous amount of work to catch up on after Rent. Anyways...
ReplyDelete1. Jacob sitting on a bench as Locke fell through the window may be one of my favorite shots from the entire show. All 100-some episodes. Just so well done. Also, what's up with the book?
2. The kid with Kate in her Jacob-back must be important. I mean, come on. You don't introduce someone so close to a character like that without follow-up. He almost seemed to be influencing her (as you said Mr. MacDonald) a la Jacob.
3. Jacob is dead. At least, in that timeline. I think with his "You found a loophole," line, it was as if he had given up, as if he really knew it was the end. Only time will tell.
4. Locke is dead. Dead dead dead. Real Locke, that is. Neo-Locke, not so much. Again, only time will tell.
5. Juliette is dead. Whether the bomb went off or not, I think they wanna get back to Jack-Kate-Sawyer.
6. On that topic, not sure that the bomb went off. Maybe, maybe not. Connecting the title card flip with a restart makes sense, but at the same time, not sure how they would pull it off.
Thus begins a long, painful, Lost-less wait. Hopefully Lostcampia will make it through.
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ReplyDeleteI’ve been thinking about this a lot, but the past few days have been pretty crazy for me—four hours asleep, then 40 hours awake, then 16 hours asleep, and so on. I had a piece of scrap paper with some notes, but I lost it. :( I’ll now try a somewhat more comprehensive thought-dump.
ReplyDeleteFirst, some quick replies to things other people have said. Willy: I think the kid with Kate was her childhood sweetheart. He had the model plane in his hand. Mr. Camp: Yes, Richard is a Constant of sorts. And yes, Miles’ warning that they were bringing about the very fate they were so desperate to avoid was very… Oedipal.
LOCKE, BEN, JACOB
Yes, Willy, I adore the scene where Jacob saves Locke. Yes, Atticus, it seems Jacob may have actually brought Locke back to life. That’s interesting. We already thought Jacob (or the Island, anyway) had resurrected Locke. Maybe he didn’t when we thought he had, but he had when we thought he hadn’t.
Willy called him “Neo-Locke,” but I’m going to call him “Jacob’s Nemesis.” I reckon Lostpedia has come up with a name for him, but I don’t want to venture over there yet.
In that final scene in the foot, I love how Jacob told Ben, “you always have a choice.” In light of everything the time-travelers have been doing, that seemed extremely significant. It’s also bizarre given that Jacob has supposedly been pulling so many strings. But in that moment, it almost seemed like Jacob represented Choice, and the Nemesis represented Destiny.
Ben made his choice. But he didn’t exactly seem in control of himself, any more than he had seemed in control of himself when he killed Keamy. Mr. Camp, I understand the urge to resist the dethroning of a long-time puppetmaster, but I’m ready to accept that Ben is just a flawed man. The Star Wars prequels dethroned the Jedi as wise, infallible demigods, and a lot of people didn’t like them for that. But folks always get demystified the more closely you look. :(
A lot of this show has been about fighting destiny, seeking freedom from it. Well, now we realize that much of the show has been about Jacob fighting his Nemesis. The conflict keeps being taken to a higher plane… from the conflict within the survivors in the first season to the conflict with the Others to the conflict between Ben and Widmore to the conflict between Jacob and his Nemesis. What’s the ULTIMATE conflict? Good and evil? Or destiny and choice?
Now, the Nemesis appears to have taken the form of Locke. That was a bit of a shocker, but it was not at all a new phenomenon on the show. Dead people show up all the time. In the past we’ve said it could be the Smoke Monster. Now we’re saying it was Jacob’s Nemesis. I’m gonna go ahead and say the Nemesis is the Monster.
That means that the Monster has been fighting Jacob the whole time. He spared Locke back in Season One, but has killed many others. He saved Ben, Locke, and others from the Mercenaries in Season 4, when Ben summoned him (without really knowing what he was doing). Notably, he “judged” Ben in the Temple, and then appeared in the form of Alex to tell Ben to do anything Locke tells him to do. Wow. Could this be any more obvious? The Monster—Jacob’s Nemesis—was making sure Ben would go along with *his own plan* to kill Jacob.
In fact, it seems the Monster has even been impersonating Jacob himself. Remember when Ilana’s group found the cabin? The *knife* (ahem) and the note in the wall? Remember when they said Jacob had abandoned it long ago? Well, we’ve seen it inhabited several times. Once, when Ben was trying to fool Locke. “Help me.” Throwing Ben against the wall. Again, with Christian (and sometimes Claire) inside, “speaking for” Jacob. Yeah right. I believe that was the Monster subverting Jacob. “Christian,” like Locke, has just been an avatar through which the Monster wages his war.
THE BOMB
I believe it went off. All the time-travelers died. Miles’ dad may have escaped (“get as far away from here as possible!”). And from there, history proceeded as if the Incident had happened, yes, but the energy in the pocket was somehow negated by the energy released by an exploding hydrogen bomb.
This is not the Incident we thought we knew. But it’s certainly an Incident. The lush, beautiful Island may have been transformed into a radioactive nuclear wasteland. In fact, I daresay any survivors might be tempted to build a giant concrete plug to try to contain as much of the radiation as possible….
THE FINAL SEASON
Will our beloved passengers of Flight 815 crash down amongst this apocalyptic landscape? Why would they? The radiation wouldn’t be enough to fry its instruments, presumably, though it’s a thought. Maybe Daniel’s calculations were a bit off and not all the energy will be negated. Or maybe the pilots will just pick an inopportune time to make some catastrophic human error. Who knows, maybe they’ll get food poisoning! The universe has a way of course-correcting, after all.
The preview was sort of interesting. The black smoky text on a white background was incredibly cool. The smoke seems significant. I’ve thought before how cool a white smoke monster would be, hehe. Black and white definitely have significance. And now they’re inverted.
Is Jacob alive or dead? Presumably he’s dead, but Lost’s version of time is a peculiar one. 1977 and 2007 seem somehow linked in a fashion more significant than just the fact that we’re watching them play out simultaneously. The Oceanic 6 are scattered across time, and by virtue of the link between the O6, those times are linked. So I wonder if Jacob’s death could somehow “persist” past the nuclear explosion. What if the final season represents the Monster in command of the Island, not Jacob? What if Jacob was dematerialized but can himself persist as white smoke? What if… no, that’s all nonsense.
But then there’s the shot in the preview of Jack opening his eye. It’ll be the third time, after falling out of Oceanic 815 (in the pilot) and after falling out of Ajira 316 (this season). But where will he be waking up!? Recall, too, that the Island is not the only “special” place on Earth. I wonder if we’ll get to see any others.
So that’s nice and all, but I’m as interested in what the storytelling format will be. Throughout the series, the format has matched the content (as it does in a lot of great art). This season, I know, a lot of viewers felt lost. The May 10 Boston Globe A&E point/counterpoint on Lost (“Lost or Found?”) brought this up. But I think that must have been absolutely, 100% intentional… because the characters have been just as lost as us. The season itself played like a skipping record. Nobody had any *purpose* any more—and, heck, what are we even doing *watching* this show any more?
First there were narrative flashbacks, as these marooned characters mourned the life they had lost and made some freakishly unlikely connections about their pasts. Then there were narrative flashforwards, as the characters looked ahead toward their destinies. And then the characters themselves started flashing haphazardly through time. Lost in space, lost in time. Lost, lost, lost.
Now the preview boldly proclaims: Destiny Found. The storytelling sequence could hardly get any more scattered. It could run totally backwards, I guess—Memento-esque. But I think it’ll simplify. Maybe, just maybe, the final season will run nice and simple, beginning to end. No flashes. Some of us would miss the time-traveling craziness. But a lot would appreciate the return to something more traditional. We know these characters’ pasts, and we know their possible futures. What’s left, in the end, is the present—the brand-new, definitive present. The present done right. Destiny found.
OK, it occurs to me that that's a big lengthy, so I'll sum up a couple of the big points:
ReplyDelete1. Jacob's nemesis is the Smoke Monster.
2. The island may now be a nuclear wasteland.
3. The viewers felt as lost as the characters this season, skipping around on a broken record. Something was terribly wrong, but it'll soon be set right. :)
Hmm...still don't have my thought's straightened out on this one. Overall GREAT episode. Everything was super....until the end. Not a fan. I like having at least a little idea of what's coming next. The whole big flash and then it's done didn't really work for me. It seems like they could be potentially throwing away 5 seasons of the show....but that doesn't make sense and I just don't know what to think and I just feel kind of lost (sorry, I tried to avoid the cliche) Anywho, everything else was great.
ReplyDelete*MacD, I don't know how you're so good at predictions, but good call on Jacob and the Black Rock. True, the ship wasn't really a part of it, but it was there.
*I thought about the Tempest in the opening scene too. Very cool. The other guy was pretty mysterious and is apparently Locke.
*Toph I love the Nemesis being the smoke monster. It actually makes a lot of sense, especially with it saving Locke and him seeing into the eye of the island. Also, since Ben & co. had been answering to Jacob for so long, the fact that en didn't know about the smoke monster would make sense maybe.
*So with this shape shifter guy, is it the same person being everyone who died on the show? When Christian shows up is that the same guy? Claire? What about off island ith Charlie and Libby? The people in the forest like Walt and that lady that Juliet the tramp had an affair with her husband (I think her name was Harper)
*We rewound the show about 5 times at the end to look at the eye. I think its Kate, but it would be true to the show for it to be Jack, especially because they'll potentially be starting the show over form the crash.
*I don't necessarily think dead is dead. I'm just not 100% convinced. For the most part it is. Even if it is final ,there's still something funny about death with the island. People couldn't die for a while. Michael tried to die, and that weird guy with the eye patch and neither of them could.
*Since nobody has made a big enough deal about it yet, I will
ROSE AND BERNARD WERE BACK WITH VINCENT!!!!!!! I was so excited. Love Rose and Bernard. But what's better than awesome people? Awesome dogs! Vincent is amazing and he was so sadly missed and I don't know how he's alive. Were Rose and Bernard each other's constants through the jumps? (If so awwwww) Ok the whole scene was a little cheesy, but it was good to get back to the only member of the back of the plane so that whole part of the show wasn't completely wasted.
*The whole Jack Sawyer talk while Sayid was dying-not cool. Also, kinda not a good conversation. One of my friends was really mad because Jack is being stupid and annoying about Kate again.
*I think next season is going to be about it all kind of restarting and being different, but no because of the bomb, but because in a parallel time "Locke" kills Jacob, who is no longer in control when 815 crashes. Without Jacob it seems like the whole path is now changed. I'm still not sure what to think with the whole time travel thing though. The butterfly effect gets involved and it gets tricky.
Ok I'm forgetting a lot but i'll maybe add more later and I feel like I should at least attempt to go to bed at a decent hour (Toph, you do that too!)
PS remember the days when everything on lost could supposedly be explained by science
Hah....science has gone right out the window Liz. Oh, and funny thing. There was a physicist at Beaver yesterday, and he talked all about time. I couldn't stop thinking about Lost. (Unfortunately, he said that time travel isn't actually possible. Oh well.)
ReplyDeleteQuick theory: What if it was the other guy that said help me to Locke in Jacob's cabin?
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete"Everything was super....until the end."
ReplyDeleteIt's a cliffhanger, sure, but I can't imagine a better stopping point. :)
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"I just feel kind of lost (sorry, I tried to avoid the cliche)"
Don't! Embrace it! I always do. :)
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Re: smoke monster
Mr. Camp made an excellent point yesterday: a few episodes back, Ben summoned the monster. But it didn't come. Instead, out of the woods walked... Locke. Bingo.
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"I don't necessarily think dead is dead."
Michael was "protected," but he was still totally dead once he died. And I think Mikhail was just resilient in a relatively ordinary way. The finale actually made it clearer than ever that 'dead is dead,' now that we seem to have an explanation for these apparitions. Christian's body may no longer have been in the coffin, but I bet it's somewhere, still totally dead.
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Re: next season
Yes, it's possible that our heroes made *two* important changes. If Jacob somehow exists "outside of time," in a funny way that isn't necessarily coherent but may nevertheless agree with Lost Logic, then, having been killed in the future by Ben / not-Locke / the Monster, he may remain dead in the new past.
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Re: the butterfly effect
Remember: the universe has a way of course-correcting. Thus, it is not chaotic; it's stable, and the butterfly effect does not apply. Small deviations from its course (e.g. a butterfly flapping its wings) are stamped out and have little to no effect on the ultimate course of the universe.
Imagine a ball rolling down a trough, a sort of inclined half-pipe. If it's disturbed a bit, it just settles back to rolling down the middle of the trough. It takes a big ol' nuke to knock it onto a fundamentally
different course.
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"PS remember the days when everything on lost could supposedly be explained by science"
Nope. Remember the monster in the pilot? The show may be getting crazier and crazier, and it may be breaking more and more of the rules that govern *our* universe, but the Island has always been a little... different. :)
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"Quick theory: What if it was the other guy that said help me to Locke in Jacob's cabin?"
I absolutely think it was. Ilana said Jacob had long since abandoned the cabin, so I think everything we've seen in there--the creepy guy in the chair, Christian, Claire--has been the Monster. We need to go back through the whole series and re-interpret a lot of things, but one quick note: the Monster (speaking through Christian), not Jacob, wanted Locke to move the island. As we saw this season, that didn't turn out so well.
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"It seems like they could be potentially throwing away 5 seasons of the show"
Throwing away, yes, maybe. Undoing. Rewinding. But even if Seasons 1-5 will no longer be "real" from the POV of Season 6, even if that history no longer exists, that doesn't mean they don't matter or are somehow now meaningless. After death, a person no longer exists in this world, in this moment. After Earth is destroyed (as it almost inevitably will be one day), it will no longer exist in the universe. And after the universe dies (as it perhaps inevitably must), it will no longer exist in the multiverse. Are we committed to saying that everything that is not permanent is ultimately meaningless? It depends on the POV from which you are judging. From the broadest, most timeless, most spaceless POV, everything exists, and we can thus comfortably say everything matters. Or something like that.
I skipped the last few posts because I'm tired and they are too long, so someone might've addressed this already but should the bomb work and nothing ever happened, then we'll have no real way of who the 'Shadow of the statue' people are, will we? Unless I missed the revelation of who they really work for.
ReplyDeleteThey appear to work for Jacob, given that he came to Ilana while she was in her hospital bed. But yeah, we know very little about them.
ReplyDeleteBut the nuke just means the Swan is never built, Desmond never fails to push the button, and Oceanic 815 never crashes. Jacob and the "Shadow of the Statue" people may well be virtually unaffected.
And it's still possible that Miles was right--that Jack brought about the very thing he was trying to prevent. :-\
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If Jacob is dead next season, though, I expect him to persist as a White Smoke Monster. :)