That's the shortest posting in the history of Toph's existence.
So, I think clearly that the episode is going to begin with Oceanic 815 landing at LAX having not crashed. That will be very cool to see the characters reacting to each other NOT knowing each other, OR having little weird moments of recognition in the consciousness because the alternate universe did, in fact, exist, whether they are conscious of it or not.
Yet, because the title is L.A. X, not LAX, I think that we will only be there momentarily and then go back to the island to see what actually transpired when Juliet whacked the bomb.
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I know this is slightly unrelated but there was an article recently in the Globe about Lost, that actually quite enjoyed even though it slightly bashed on it. Here's a link if anyone is interested. http://www.boston.com/ae/tv/articles/2010/01/24/why_we_watch_lost_which_opens_its_sixth_and_final_season_on_feb_2/
ReplyDeleteLost has always been a story told out-of-sequence, but they keep taking the intercutting to the next level – the past, the future, time travel, and now parallel universes. It’s actually quite fitting.
ReplyDeleteThe story could already only work if you allowed for parallel universes. Now we just know we’ll be following both of them.
Are there more? Could parallel Losties meet? Tell and be told (*whisper* and listen) of a past, present, and future lost?
How did Juliet know?
The great convenience – evidence of God, if you ask Benjamin Linus – of Jack Shephard being on Oceanic 815 isn’t that he fell out of the sky atop a man with a tumor. It’s that he was flying with a paraplegic.
Well, it’s either, depending on your position along the m-axis.
The ash, explained. The bare feet, the abducted children, explained. Hurley talking to dead people… not explained, but confirmed. The temple, the true othermost Others – revealed.
The fountain of youth. Ah yes. The island has always been Eden-esque. Frankly, I was expecting the Tree of Life.
Esau just wants to go home.
I don’t understand.
Toph, Toph, Toph. As Mr. MacDonald pointed out to my class in Calc today, it's all Sawyer's dream.
ReplyDeleteDuh.
Seriously though, that was kinda nuts.
I will write more soon but I don't think I've seen special effects as advanced as the first 5 minutes since oh I don't know 1995? Super real looking shark.
ReplyDeleteA. Boone! How I miss thee so.
ReplyDeleteB. Suicidal Charlie? Do they just not want to deal with Dom M?
C. I agree with Liz about the graphics for the underwater island. You'd think with such a following (i.e. a SNL cast member wearing a Dharma sweatshirt on the last episode) theyd be able to go out with a Bang, which leads me to
D. The bomb? Locke 2.0 being the Smoke Machine? A stretch but all I could think of was "I am become death, the destroyer of worlds."
E. Disappearing Desmond? Whats going on there. I also thought, and maybe Im forgetting something but Desmond wasn't one of the others or Dharma right? So how did the Others just let him be running that station solo for all that time?
F. I half expected Sayid to die and become Jacob so that we could have a Sayid v. Locke impersonator showdown.
G. Its good to have the old Sawyer back, Juliet got him too nice and clean shaven. I think thats enough for one post but yeah.
For the record, my original post simply read "The beginning of the end. Discuss." I just wanted to get something (anything!) posted so folks could start leaving comments, and I had to run to class....
ReplyDeleteAtticus, the Locke/smoke monster thing follows quite naturally from everything we've seen... in fact, we predicted it successfully. :)
"So, I think clearly that the episode is going to begin with Oceanic 815 landing at LAX having not crashed."
Good so far.
"That will be very cool to see the characters reacting to each other NOT knowing each other, OR having little weird moments of recognition in the consciousness because the alternate universe did, in fact, exist, whether they are conscious of it or not."
Well, Jack and Desmond had their moment, but they actually *did* meet, in the stadium -- unless that somehow changed in this universe. The others didn't really have similar moments, although the camera did repeatedly lock on their eyes making contact -- but I think that was mainly the camera, not the people, that was saying anything significant.
"Yet, because the title is L.A. X, not LAX, I think that we will only be there momentarily and then go back to the island to see what actually transpired when Juliet whacked the bomb."
That's a weirdly good guess.
This is how I see it:
ReplyDeleteWe have had 5 fantastic seasons of drama, action, mystery and more. There are approximately 1000000 questions to answer this season. They have to be explained enough that a common viewer can understand what happened. I think this season will be incredibly disappointing. They have to explain so much, a ton of which has gotten a little too far fetched for me (that darn engineering) and I feel like it will be a season of rapid answers too crammed in. I hope to be proven wrong, but that's just my thought as of now.
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I liked the episode for the most part. I loved seeing everyone back on the plane. The Jacob/nemesis was great. It answers a lot of questions. Kate is awesome. Especially at the beginning, she and Sawyer belong together. Not Jack. No Jack and Kate. It's not ok. I don't think Charlie was necessarily suicidal. I thought maybe he was trying to hide it, then again, I think they were trying to show how much worse off most of them were without the island. It was so depressing to see Locke I couldn't handle it. Poor guy. They should go back to the island.
Oh and Juliet died. I actually thought it was kind of sad.
Glad to finally have LostCampia active again.
ReplyDeleteSo I've heard from a couple sources that they think Sayid was lacking an accent when he woke up at the end of the episode. A lot of people seem to think that Jacob is now using his body. Does anyone have any ideas about this?
I have to disagree with Liz about this season sucking or being disappointing. What LOST has done, and always done, is reinvent itself every season--this is what, say, "Grey's Anatomy" cannot do (I say this because of the ads for G.A. during LOST which were the same ads that could have been out about 5 years ago--new power in the hospital, some surgery goes awry, cast members hooking up with other cast members; it's so preposterously pedantic I don't understand how it's lasted this long--but that's the point, it has, because that's what we as a provincial viewing public enjoy or, at least, withstand. Like "Avatar," cool movie, but the plot was so cliched it hurt--why not create a cool, unique Pandora planet with humans turning into Avatars and NOT have the same story line we've all seen a million times? The fact that "Avatar" has made $2 billion declares our own mindless inertia. I think "Grey's Anatomy Avatar" would make $3 billion). An ad for this season of LOST could not be shown 5 years ago. That's sickk.
ReplyDeleteSo, parallel universes? Two Jacks, one in 2004 and one in 2007? I don't see that as disappointing, but rather amazing. And, with all the craziness of such dichotomy and juxtaposition, they've managed to keep our interest in the individual characters--granted, I'm a Jack fan, so when he was in The Temple, I felt empathy for him. When Richard saw the fireworks and knew that meant a very bad thing, I could feel his anguish. When Locke was in the wheel chair still in 2004, I wanted him to be walking.
What L.A. X did was, once again, genius:
*It answered numerous questions we've been waiting years for (The Temple, the children, the healing power of the island)
*It raised more: the smoke monster wants to go home (Um, "We have to go back!" anyone?), where is home? Is Sayid really Jacob reincarnated after that very Jesus/Christian baptism and resurrection scene?
*A lot of people weren't on Oceanic 815 because their life history was different in the alternate universe (i.e. Hurley has good luck, which was an awesome line to SHOW that this universe's track is different)
*Obviously, a lot more questions, too.
They answered questions, thankfully, and raised some more, but I totally see it that in their scope this can all be wrapped up by the end of this season. And that's disappointing that we're going to lose this epic creation of reinvention that is LOST. (LOST will be lost and subsequently, so will we be without out. Hence, even the title is brilliant).
Just a few things I have noticed or some theories...
ReplyDelete1) Kate visually could see Jack and Sawyer both passed out on the ground and intentionally chose to see if Jack was fine over Sawyer.
2)Michael and Walt seem to not be existent in both the recap show or any of the episode, as do the Tailies.
3) Sawyer has a distinct visual reaction, almost like a smirk, when he hears that Hurley has won the lottery, which could lead Sawyer to try to con Hurley in the alternate universe.
4) The "Numbers" do not seem to have a huge importance in the show anymore. While Jacks sat in row 23 of plane in the "crashed" universe, he sat in row 24 in the alternate universe. In the "Mysteries of the Universe," I think a point was made that the "Numbers" are crucial to the Dharma Initiative's, which may not exist, studies.
5) Sayid=Jesus. And Sayid may be the second coming of The Other's God: Jacob.
6) I truly believe that Juliet was about to say "I'm pregnant" before she died (her lips seem to mouth the beginning of this phrase).
7) Juliet's crazy comment to Sawyer (something like "Let's get some coffee") is so similar to Charlotte's crazy comment "I'm not allowed to eat chocolate before dinner" that it makes me believe that Juliet is quoting some connection/memory/attachment to the alternate universe. Just as Charlotte somehow remembered that Faraday scared her(in his future yet her past, thus two different time periods), Juliet may be remembering something that happened in the alternate universe( thus a bridge must be made between the two universes). Ultimately, this would agree with Juliet's point that "It worked."
8) Based on point 7, I'm struggling to figure out whether the destinies in each universe are the same like will Juliet and Sawyer somehow be reunited or will Jack and Kate fall back in love.
Yeah, that's my first very rough draft of theories so feel free to edit.
Some excellent points....
ReplyDeleteI think a lot of questions will indeed not be totally answered by the finale, but I think they'll manage to hit the big stuff. We just have to let go when it comes to minutiae.
Re: Kate / Jack / Sawyer love triangle -- we now have two timelines. Things need not come to a single conclusion, need not converge. Kate could end up with Jack AND Sawyer, one in each timeline. Pretty crazy way to resolve a love triangle. :)
A lot of folks were indeed missing (Shannon? mentioned but not seen), and, unfortunately, I reckon a lot of that is just due to casting issues. I hate to see real world mechanics affect the ongoing masterpiece.
Mr. Camp, I absolutely adored Avatar. :) But that may have to be a discussion for another time.
But I agree that it's awesome how Lost continually reinvents itself. A really impressive achievement. Utterly unpredictable, given the starting point, and yet I have no trouble buying it. Never contrived.
Liz, I'm sorry your engineering education has interfered, haha.....
Question: what was up with the cut on Jack's neck at the very beginning? Did he always have that?
And - Desmond? And why didn't Desmond recognize Jack?
"Two Jacks, one in 2004 and one in 2007?"
Two Jacks, yes, but I wouldn't say one is in 2004 and one is in 2007. That's just when we're seeing them.
Q: What is 'now'? No -- WHEN is 'now'?
A: Whenever we think it is.
Alright, tons to respond to.
ReplyDeleteOverall, I thought it was a fantastic episode. I loved seeing some old characters again, and it was also awesome to see the Temple (I can only imagine how excited Toph is) and stuff.
Kate was totally bad-ass, and I thought it was nice to see that old side of her, as opposed to her put together, professional LA-girl side that was so prevelent last season. She was climbing trees again, just like the old days. And I was glad that, as soon as Juliet died, Sawyer was back to his old obnoxious self. I missed him. I also think that Miles is pretty awesome.
Mr Camp -- Despite the fact that I enjoy both greys anatomy and Avatar, I did, at one point, think to myself during L.A. X, "what if we saw this episode right after the premiere episode? Apart from (some of) the characters, are there any similarities?" Although sometimes its annoying that the show has changed that much, I still think that all the development is awesome and so enjoyable and incredible.
Camp, I also agree that the parallel universes are pretty awesome. And this episode specifically made me appreciate all of the character development throughout the series, because, like you said, you immediately feel anguish for Locke as he climbs into his wheelchair, depression when you see that Jin is back to his old self, fright at the fate of Sayid, excitement (obviously) at the sight of Boone and Charlie. Thats all thanks to the flashbacks, and I hope we get some more of that type of character focus this season -- although I suppose they have a lot of other stuff to worry about. Like what the hell is Desmond doing on the plane?
It seemed to me that, while Boone was talking to Locke, he hinted that Shannon was not on the plane -- that she never left her boyfriend back in Australia. So, we are missing her, michael and walt (and vincent, obviously), and the tailies. Anyone know if the Ana Lucia and Libby actresses are still in jail? That might clear their absense up...
Shaun- I like your #1. I noticed that too. Also, when juliet said "I have something important to tell you," I immediately went "She's pregnant!" and I got yelled at by all of my friends cause they didn't think that was a big enough deal. So I'm glad someone else had the same initial reaction that I did.
Toph - I think your idea of Kate ending up with Jack in one universe and Sawyer in another would be the PERFECT way for the producers to make everyone happy. Good idea. Also, Desmond might not have recognized Jack just because of his poor memory. Remember when they "met" for the second time in season 2? Jack recognized Des first, so maybe that was what we saw happen again.
So yeah, overall, I'm pretty happy about how that episode turned out, specifically with all the parallels to the Pilot. One final thought, though:
if the plane didn't crash, then that means that something must have changed back on the island. Normally, I would say that it must've had something to do with Desmond making it back to the hatch in time to push the button, but we saw that the whole island was underwater. So what changed, and what caused that to happen? Is that why Desmond was on the plane? Did I miss something?
Silly Maddy. They detonated the nuke! The energy was negated! And the island flooded, apparently. The Swan was never built, the button was never built, Desmond never had to push it, and he never didn't.
ReplyDeleteRegarding our emotional attachment -- yes, it was fun and sometimes a little depressing to see where our friends would be without the island. But Esau called Locke a sad man; in this island-less universe, I don't think he really was. He was depressed to get into his wheelchair, yes. But, speaking to Jack, he nevertheless seemed to be... at peace.
Speaking of speaking to Jack, the question of where Christian Shephard IS might be, well, decidedly non-trivial. That exchange may not simply be about reminding us of John Locke's faith.
The obvious answer is, of course, the island.
Or, in some different universe, he didn't even die.
If every possible reality is real in some parallel dimension, then bringing your loved ones back from the dead would just be a matter of, well, finding them.
You should all really read His Dark Materials. The Golden Compass, The Subtle Knife, The Amber Spyglass. Philip Pullman.
Wait, there was a hatch?
ReplyDeleteGlad to see lots of posts, and glad to read so many interesting ideas. I decided to avoid Lostpedia entirely during this season, so you guys will be my main source of theories. So far, you're off to a nice start.
ReplyDeleteSome ideas and responses to what's been posted so far:
After the poorly done shot of the island underwater (the shark was a nice touch, I'll admit), I wonder if any Atlantis mythology is going to come into play.
I don't know about Juliet saying that she's pregnant, although it's an interesting idea. When Miles "listens" to a dead Juliet, it seems like she'd pass along exactly what she was trying to say to Sawyer before she died. It's conceivable that Miles would lie about what he heard (we saw him lie to a father about his dead son in one of last season's episodes), but if he was going to lie, I really doubt that he'd tell Sawyer that Juliet said, "It worked." Is it possible that there's an alternate Juliet who's safely off the island? And is it possible that the dying Juliet is aware of the alternate Juliet? Is that how she knows that "it worked"?
I do think that Sayid might be the new vessel for Jacob, but I really like the fact that we don't know what brought Sayid back to life: faith (the temple/Jacob) or science (Jack).
I'm glad that the alternate reality ("Lost X"?) wasn't simply the opposite of the normal reality. At first, it seemed as if Lost X would be a world in which everything is good/right and original recipe Lost would be a world in which everything is evil/wrong. That would've been too simple.
The cut on Jack's neck is clearly significant, but I'm not sure that we've got any clues about what it means. We've seen nosebleeds as a side-effect of time travel, but this seems to be something different.
I'm thinking about the whole time/space model a lot right now, and I don't know if I've got it figured out, but maybe someone can build upon these thoughts. The events at the end of season 5 are unique, right?: the incident at the Swan is special, the killing of Jacob is special, even the change in the Lost logo is special. Eloise even says something like, "For the first time in a long time, I don't know what's going to happen next." All of this points to a big change in the whole space/time model when Jughead explodes. It seems like the universe has branched into two universes, and it seems like those two universes are now running in parallel. I see no reason why the people in both universes couldn't "fix" the rift and bring those two universes back together. After all, Jack tells Locke that nothing is irreversible, right?
About the smoke monster:
ReplyDeleteit was IN the Temple, right, when it 'judged' Ben? Is this the "home" it wants to go back to, especially since the hostiles put the dust around it? If it can get in the Temple, why are they so afraid of it?
About Ben:
I'm still finding it hard to accept that Ben has no power anymore. He is essentially just a patsy now. I still feel like he's not done with his machinations. I think about him and Widmore, and in Season 4, how he ended up in Widmore's bedroom and said that he couldn't kill him then, which is like the weird pact between Jacob and the smoke monster. So, what are their rules? Is that conflict null now that Ben is virtually powerless?
Christian is Jacob-Controlled?
ReplyDeleteThe smoke monster shows up throughout the show - characters like Mr. Eko, the horse that kate always sees, Christian Sheps, and Locke seem to all be forms that the smoke monster takes.
But with the recent revelation that the ash wards off the monster, keeping him outside its boundary, we know that it would be impossible for him to get into Jacob's cabin. But when Locke (still actually locke) goes to visit the cabin, Christian is inside; since the smoke monster can't get there, it had to actually be Christian (he was pretty dead last time we checked), or a form of Jacob ("No, but I can speak on his behalf").
This brings up an interesting idea. Jacob, too, can shapeshift; Mr. Camp mentioned a sort of "white Smoke Monster", at one of our lunches. Perhaps Jacob has his own smoke-monter-form as well. This does not mean that every time Christian shows up, that he is Jacob (Jack's visions of him through the early seasons, showing up to meet Sun), but it seems that he is on Jacob's side.
Ah, I had forgotten about my white smoke monster theory!
ReplyDeleteI really like the idea that maybe Miles lied about what Juliet said, especially citing the episode when he did lie. After all, the first thing she said when she woke up was that it didn't work. Miles is interesting, and that's poignant power to have because people will believe what he says because they're so vulnerable when hoping to hear the words of someone dead.
Cut on Jack's neck: yeah, I can't figure that one out. At first, I thought it was a terribly cheesy move because I thought Jack was the one who got grazed in the neck by a bullet in the "Shoot Out at the Others Corral," but that was Farrady. So, I'm curious.
Finally, when I watched it again, I really liked how the acting of Jack on the plane--it wasn't over the top at all, but subtle looks on his face that somewhere in the caverns of his consciousness he could feel something was just a little bit weird.
Wow, glad to see Lostcampia running at full steam yet again. Anyway, lots of what I was going to say has been covered, so I'll just get into a couple things.
ReplyDeleteFirst off, the ash. I have heard a theory that the ash is Jacob's remains, which explains why Esau can't get through it, and explains why it's ash in the first place. I really like this one, and keep in mind the fact that even though Jacob died far past the first time we saw the ash, this is Lost, and time is a pretty nonlinear thing.
Secondly, I feel like something is going to happen to bring us back to just one universe. It may be a situation where, like seasons past, the mechanic introduced at the beginning of the season says constant (heh, get it?) throughout the season. However, I don't know how smooth the pacing would be if we had to deal with two disperate realities the whole time. I guess we'll see.
Shaun, the more I think about it, the more the Christian Shepard thing makes a ton of sense. I mean, they [Shepard and Jacob] even talk the same way. This is one to watch out for, definitely.
I am so impressed with the acting in the premiere. The fact that we could see the characters living out their tormented island-lives one way, and see the non-island characters behaving so differently, and so similarly to the way they first behaved, is really impressive. Terry O'Quinn should be headed back to the Emmys.
I very much like the ash theory.
ReplyDeleteWilly, when you said Shaun, did you mean Simon?
Re: re-convergence, keep in mind that the dual timelines we're currently following are separated by three years. I'm not saying it won't happen (indeed, I think it's quite likely), I'm just saying the no-islanders have some catching up to do.
I've long been a proponent of Jacob having some white smoke monster form -- and we may have encountered it before. From Lostpedia's article on the Monster:
"Three days later, Locke was in the jungle hunting for boar when he got his first close-up look at the entity. As it approached him from above, Locke stood his ground and faced it. Locke escaped unharmed and had some kind of spiritual awakening as a result. He initially told Michael that he did not see it, but later told Jack, "I've looked into the eye of this Island... and what I saw was beautiful." However, Locke would later claim that the entity he saw was not the black smoke but rather a "beautiful bright light," suggesting that he saw a different form of the entity or a completely different entity entirely."
I sort of wonder if the smoke is what remains after the Man in Black / Esau's "death", you know? His corporeal body destroyed, he roams ethereal. In which case Jacob's spirit may only now (after his body burned to ash) be embodied in white smoke.
Which, of course, means he'd have had to do some time-traveling to encounter Locke back in Season 1. Hm. Not terribly likely.
I like the ash theory but....
ReplyDeleteWhen you cremate someone, there's not that much ash. Theres enough to make a thick ring around the cabin, some for the black pouch used in the statue room, and then some for the people at the temple. That's a lot of ash for one body.
I am a bit hesitant with Jacob acting as Christian for a few reasons:
ReplyDelete1) Correct me if I am wrong, but when we did see Christian in Jacob's Cabin, he was with Claire. Esau, as Christian, could have aked Claire to make the gap between the ash, as seen in the Season 5 finale by Bram, which allowed Esau then to enter the house. We know Esau is a master manipulator, and he knew Claire would help her "father" do anything.
2) Before Locke turned the wheel, Christian told him that he would have to die. Christian, as a version would do this, because he knew he would need to take the form of Locke once his dead body appeared on the island.
3) Christian tells Sun and Lapidus to wait for "Locke" at the Barracks, Jacob would not tell anyone to wait for guidance from Esau.
Willy, I agree that there is some connection between the two universes. In most seasons there are always two separate "things" coinciding or running parallel to each other . In Season 2, (too some extent) there were two sections of the plane living on the island:the Tailies and the main cabin. In season 3, two societies exist on the Island: the Others and the Survivors of Oceanic 815. In season 4, two worlds were set up : the Island and the outside world. In season 5, (ultimately) two timelines were streaming at the same time: 1977 and 2007. In season 6, two universes were created. If you notice in the past seasons, the two separate "things" were ultimately bridged or connected with each other. The Tailies joined the survivors of the main section of the plane, the Others conflicted with the Losties, the outside world(in the form of the freighter) made it to the Island, the two timelines became one, and hopefully the two universes will be interconnected.
Also, the fourth episode of this season is called "The Substitute" (similar to "The Constant" and "The Variable"). So at first I thought that this would prove that Jacob was indeed substituted into Sayid's body. But then I was informed that Darlton shot down this theory in an interview on Jimmy Kimmel Live, yet they did say that something else possessed Sayid. Anyone have alternative theories on this?
I am watching the Superbowl right now, and LOST has seemed to have a huge impact on...beer commercials. Our friend Pierre Chang was in one commercial and another commercial focused on a plane crashing on an island....I'm glad LOST has such an important impact on society...
Two very quick points:
ReplyDeleteI like the idea that there are two smoke monsters, but I wonder if the previous posts here have the hierarchy backwards. What if the smoke monsters take the form of various people (like Jacob and Esau) instead of the other way around? So, the smoke monsters existed before, after and independent of Jacob and Esau. Does that help to resolve some of the awkward time issues that Toph pointed out?
I'm trying to connect some of the water stuff that we've seen recently. The holy water in the temple gets murky. We see the island underwater. Near the end of last season, when Ben summoned the smoke monster, he had to open some sort of valve that made the water drain out. I get the sense that all of this stuff could be connected somehow, but I don't have any specific suggestions yet. Maybe someone else can run with this idea?
Yes, my instinct is that Christian has been more aligned with the Monster's interests.
ReplyDeleteYes yes, it's very possible that the smoke forms are primary and all human forms are secondary.
Yes, it's not clear how there would be so much ash. Still... smoke, fire, ash....
How does the electromagnetic fence surrounding Dharmaville relate to the ash?
I'm recalling our over/under discussions about the monster... it roams the catacombs the crisscross the island's underworld, but cannot cross over the fence.
If it just wants to go home, and if home were the fountain of youth, then we may have a partial explanation for the water. What if the water Ben drained was drawn from that holy spring? As it seeped into the catacombs, the underworld, the monster's realm, the monster would be drawn like a shark to blood (except, y'know, different).
"Make Your Own Kind of Music" just came on on shuffle.
Anyway, yeah -- folks could've stashed little reservoirs of holy water here and there, for use in case of emergency. Interesting.
Now. Any thoughts on why Richard was in chains when Esau saw him last?
NIKKI AND PAULO ARE THE SMOKE MONSTERS.
ReplyDeleteok not really.....maybe they're part of the ash. I just wanted to bring them up.